Art by Ruth Wellman
What is trade and commercial publishing and which one is better? How do you avoid art scams? And should you list prices for the work you sell? This week, Jake Parker, Lee White, and Will Terry discuss the answers to these questions and give their best advice on dodging scams and pricing their work.
This episode was recorded in two sessions.
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SHOW LINKS
Foster the People’s song Pumped up Kicks
BEVERLY’S FOLLOWUP
To kick things off, the guys follow up on Beverly's question from the last podcast--“how do I get work?” They regrettably couldn’t answer the question fully at that time because they couldn’t see her work.
Jake brings up Mr. Doodle, a line artist who has quite the following on Instagram. He draws simple, iconic things over a large space. His skill isn’t magnificent, but the spaces he covers make what he does art.
Lean into your strengths. Yes, learn the basics but also be aware of your audience and what kind of art you are trying to do. If you want to do book covers/illustration then you should focus on the skills necessary for that. Same thing if you want to do graphic novels or comic books or line art like Mr. Doodle.
Will says that they’ve seen Beverly’s work now--she’s sent them her website/instagram to take a look at--and he asks Lee to rate Beverly’s work.
Lee takes the deflection with good humor and says that he doesn't think Beverly is ready for prime time yet, and Will agrees, saying he’d rate it at a two or three on a one to ten scale (maybe four on some pieces). That’s not enough to be consistently busy.
Will suggests that she try doing the nine grid that he, Jake, and Lee are always talking about. She should take her favorite piece and put it in the middle of a three by three grid and in the boxes around it she should put her favourite illustrators. Really examine your images versus theirs and use that comparison to define what’s lacking in your own work.
He then asks Lee and Jake to help him list three things she could really improve on.
Lee says that (1) she has a portfolio that is more character artist than illustrator. An illustrator, he tells us, is a storyteller--they are saying something with their art. But, the first six pieces of Beverly’s (portfolio) is just a character. It’s dead center of the page. It’s not doing anything. Unless the viewer absolutely loved the way this character was drawn there’s nothing for their eye to do on the page. The viewer can’t engage with it.
It’s a bit chalky in terms of technical painting--she uses a bit too much white. It’s something that happens alot in the beginning--you over highlight areas-- which in traditional painting means you are using too much white.
Everything is lit a bit too brightly, but Lee’s main problem with it is that there is nothing happening in these images. They’re just stand alone characters, standing alone.
Will says that if he’s an art director he needs to see that you are able to illustrate the project he’s hiring you for. In her question Beverly mentioned that she is looking for work in many different fields. Will’s advice for you is to narrow that down and focus on just one or two things that you really want to do and really strategize your portfolio for that.
Her portfolio is kind of all over the place, and to help fix that he suggests that she give herself assignments that look like they’re part of a bigger project so that when people look at them they’ll say to themselves “that’s a really interesting drawing. I wonder what that was for.”
He calls the pieces in her portfolio greeting card pieces. He hesitates to call it an easy market, but it is relatively simple for a greeting card company to see a more static piece of art on Instagram and ask it’s artist for permission to use the image.
Jake notices that she’s really dialed into the facade stuff, the on top stuff, and not really the fundamentals beneath that really make a work. She knows how to use texture and filter and line work. Her color choices aren’t bad. She’s got the last ten percent of her art down--she really knows how to make her art stand out and come to life-- but, she’s missing the first ninety percent.
He’s looking at her work and doesn't see understanding of structure. He doesn’t see an understanding of how to rotate the neck or how different body parts attach to one another. A fundamental understanding of life drawing would go so far in these drawings. An understanding of body parts in three dimensional space would go so far for her and take her into that six to seven range on Will’s scale where she would be getting work.
Lee thinks that’s true but even if that gets fixed there’s going to be another problem. There’s the lack of story.
Early in his career, he created an image called The Button Lady. He brings this up because The Button Lady was such a specific character with such a specific design that she sort of influenced the art around her to be part of her story.
Any character you do, any story you draw, has a specific purpose for being the way they are and doing the things they do. Beverly’s character’s are missing specificity. There is no reason for them to be on the page.
Will asks Jake and Lee if they think that becoming a freelance artist is about communing with your fellow freelancers or if it’s more of a cage match, and he answers his own question, saying it's a cage match with yourself. You have to be better than your competition in order to get work.
Jake likes to think of it more like an ecosystem. If you are a housecat you do not live in the jungle. You live in a house. It’s where you survive and thrive because you are made for that environment. In art, you need to plant yourself where you know you will bloom.
For instance, Jake is not good at painting. He is not Howard Lyon--fine art like that is not his thing. But if you need him to draw Rocket Racoon--sci-fi, kinda goofy art like that-- he would take Howard Lyon to school.
You have to find your niche and lean in hard at that. Follow the path that you know you can win at.
Beverly did a countdown for Christmas and Jake believes that when she does patterns like that her work is in the seven to eight range. She could market that to paper companies or greeting card companies and get lots of work.
He says that finding work is about a) finding out who you are as an artist and leaning into what you’re good at and b) having an ‘eye of the tiger’ mentality and working hard at learning all the things you need to know to compete for jobs in your market.
Will recommends looking at Brittany Lee if you haven’t already.
He remembers thinking he had arrived because he was getting work two or three years out of art school. What’s crazy is a lot of his students now are so much better in school that he was out of it, and that’s why he says it’s so hard to find where you fit.
One thing he would recommend to Beverly is to draw bigger. Some of her characters are drawn really small and it doesn’t allow for her to really master the anatomy.
Jake wants to be clear that her characters are good and that her understanding of color palettes is good. And Lee agrees that she could use a class on composition and a class on storytelling and that would fix a lot of her problems because she is getting a lot better.
Will asks if the others think she should be posting every day or like once a week when you’re starting out like she is. Lee says that she probably isn’t close enough to having to worry about an art director so either of those posting frequencies should be fine.
He says that the focus right now shouldn’t be on ‘oh, I need work’ but on fixing the gaps in her skill set, and that once she’s done that maybe she should start a new Instagram account that’s like her ‘Pro’ Instagram account.
The guys then delve into how they did ‘crits’ for people for a while. It was called Third Thursday (according to Lee no one showed up) and it turned into Critique Arena.
Kaisa asks about trade v. commercial publishing. She would like to hear their opinions on the difference between the two. She has recently learned a bit more about it but, she still is not super clear on the difference because they are more blended in Sweden.
Is there a difference in style, topic, or stories? Is there more money in one versus the other? Does one lend itself more to illustration than the other?
Trade publishing is publishing a book sold in a bookstore. Trade books are sold to the trade--they are sold to the public. It’s bigger money. You get an advance against the royalties of your book. This is the one that if your book is famous enough (think Harry Potter level) you as an author or illustrator can go far. The marketing and publicity budget is better.
Commercial or mass market publishing are books that are sold to supermarkets or drug stores.These are typically mass market books, there is less emphasis on individual titles or marketing. They can be educational. The big thing about these books for artists is that they are flat fee paying, work-for-hire projects. The copyright has been taken from you and you will never see a royalty.
Lee says that typically it’s easier for an artist to get to work on a commercial project than a trade one. It costs less for the publisher and there’s a lot less risk for them.
The pay for a mass market book is not great but if you can do the project in a style that will move your name forward--go for it. The aim of the new illustrator is to get their name and work out there.
The thing with these books is that there is not a lot of room for creative license. It’s a lower paying project and the publishers want what they want so they will wrangle control of the project from you. And so, if you take these on you really need to ask yourself ‘is this going to move my career forward?’
Lee was offered once to do an alphabet series that would pay pretty well. He was just out of college at the time and was making no money. He wouldn’t have royalty rights, but he would have his name on it. He weighed the exposure against all the hand-holding that these people wanted to do and he decided against doing the project.
He went to the trade industry for more control, but he says that if you can get something good out of doing a commercial you should do it. It’s not a loss.
But, keep in mind that if you do work in commercial publishing you plan to get out quickly before the industry starts taking advantage of you. GET A PORTFOLIO PIECE AND GET OUT.
Will knows someone who has had a lucrative career in kidlit but he’s relatively unknown. He’s made a living doing a series under a pseudonym. And he’s like, “how do I get out of this? I’m not doing my own stuff.” But he’s making good money doing this.
Jake’s opinion is do what you gotta do to make money, but always have a personnel project that you’re working on. Something only you can create. Something that means something to you.
His advice is maybe you get a day job that has nothing to do with art to pay the bills so you can pour all your creativity into this project you believe in.
If you need to do a hundred commercial books to pay your rent so you can do your own thing then do that. If you only want to do commercial type books and you’re willing to just be the pencil that marks down someone else's vision then do that. Figure out what you want to do and where you want to be and chart a course in that direction.
You might transition from commercial books to doing your own thing. You might learn what’s popular and what sells from doing that.
Foster the People’s song Pumped up Kicks. The guy who wrote this song used to have a career in writing music for commercials. He knew what makes people listen to songs--the beats and lyrics--and he went and wrote an album around that and people loved it.
Advice is not a roadmap. No one else can chart the course for you. Others can help you along but ultimately you decide the path that works best for what you want to accomplish.
ART SCAMS
Jake asks the others if they’ve ever had to deal with scammers who prey on artists. He was contacted by a social-media friend who wanted to warn him about a scam and that situation reminded him of a scam he encountered.
He got an email asking if he had any art pieces for sale in the range of 500-5,000 dollars. The email was very legitimate sounding and didn’t immediately read like a scam. The emailer also included his email and said that any contact will be met with a quick response.
The email seemed fishy to Jake because 1) he’s never sold a piece of art for 5,000 dollars and 2) the email said that the art was going to be an anniversary present for the scammer’s wife, and this seemed a bit suspect to Jake.
Jake replied, asking the scammer to send him pictures or links to the artwork that the man’s wife likes so he can see if he has anything similar available. And true to his word, the scammer replies that he just wants Jake to send him pictures and prices of anything he’s got.
Jake said “Nope, you pick.” And, thankfully, that’s where the conversation ended. Apparently this is a pretty common scam. Here’s how it works.
If Jake had sent him the pictures and prices, the scammer would’ve said ‘great, I’ll pay you 5,000 for [insert artwork here]. Here’s the address to mail it to. Please send it as soon as possible. My anniversary is next week and I want to give it to my wife then.’
They say that they’ll cover shipping and they’ll send you a check. You get the check and it’s for the promised amount and the extra to cover shipping. You think ‘oh this is legit’ and you go to deposit it. And as soon as you do -- because they have people monitoring the timing of it to get it just right-- they send you a message, saying they sent you too much could you please wire them back X amount of dollars.
So you do, and then two weeks later your bank sends you a message, telling you that check bounced.
That’s how they get money from you. They are counting on the fact that they sounded legit, they flattered you about your art, and since they sent you so much money you don’t feel bad about wiring them 500 dollars.
Will encountered this scam a while back and the check he was sent was not real.
He has a friend who likes to scam these people back and waste their time. He emails them and gets them excited, like they’ve got a live one, and he just gives them excuses as to why he can’t deposit the check (oh my wife accidentally threw it out). Apparently, this friend was able to get three checks out of these people.
Jake says that there’s a Paypal variant of this scam. Not long after you give them your Paypal email they’ll send you a message saying ‘we’re having trouble sending you the money but Paypal should’ve sent you a code just now. Could you give that to us?’ This code is a password reset verification code, and once they have that they can log into your account and change your password so they can take your money.
The version that his social-media friend escaped was geared more toward free-lancers. He was approved over Facebook Messenger for creating illustrations about the coronavirus. They asked for a quote and they sent him a check that was mistakenly written for almost double the money he asked for.
If he had deposited the check and sent them their money back, he would’ve been on the hook for the check that bounced.
Jake wanted to share this information as a PSA to watch out for scams. Watch out for generalized information (like if they don’t know about the type of art you produce). Watch out for a sense of urgency in their emails--don’t fall for something that has a deadline in a week because freelance jobs will give you a better time table than that. Do your research. Share stuff on social media if you think something sounds fishy.
And Will adds that old adage “If something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.”
There are some out-of-the-blue windfall situations that happened to Jake where some guy contacted him about making some larger images of some comic panels he drew.
Lee recently got an email similar to the scam email mentioned earlier just with much more detail about the specific painting they wanted and the gallery where they saw it. The email was asking for pricing for that painting, Lee sent him the details, and the man bought the painting.
Jake asks him if the email had a funky capitalization or spelling errors. Lee replies that everything looked normal, and that he mentioned it because it was so similar to the scam email but so different in it’s level of specificity.
You really have to read between the lines with these things, and be very cautious about payment methods. Lee wouldn’t have been okay with a wire transfer of money, a check would’ve been ok-ish but he would’ve held onto the painting until the check cleared.
Roxanna asks, “To list prices or not to list prices?”
Is it better to list your prices on your website or to have the client contact you for details?
Sometimes at cons (and Jake’s done this himself) people don’t list the prices for their work next to it, and Jake asks for the guys’ opinions on this.
Will says to always list, and Lee agrees. He gets so annoyed when people don’t list their prices. The artwork was made to sell.
Will always tries to come up with a value proposition for his work at the conventions that he does.
Jake has a counter argument towards this. He has a friend who is super successful at conventions but he doesn’t list his prices. His reasoning was that he wanted people to make a connection with the art regardless of price or dollar value instead of being turned off because something is out of their price range.
Jake did try that for a while but he found that his art was not high-brow enough for this.
Will doesn't buy it. He thinks that when a price isn’t listed it’s because the price is too high.
Lee says never list your prices for a service-based thing. Will agrees because it’s so different to charge for an object than for your time. There are just too many variables when you offer your time.
Unless, Jake says, it’s for commission work. Like if you are doing so many pet portraits in a week and you only have so many slots of time available. Listing your price for that is one way to help you fill those slots.
Lee recommends that if you are going to do that put a range of prices next to the options for the portraits.
Jake points out that when people reach out to you for freelance work, after they make sure that you have time available for their project, they usually ask you what your rate is. And, by that they usually mean “How much do you charge a day?”
What he does is give people his daily rate but he also tells them that maybe they should negotiate a price for the whole project. Doing that makes them more comfortable asking for revisions and it helps reduce their sticker shock at the end of the project.
You don’t want to charge hourly because it does come off as amateurish. It shows people that you lack confidence in your art. And, the client can come away feeling a little nickel and dimed too.
When you take a car into the shop they bill you for parts and labor. They usually give you an estimate on how long that’s going to take, and therefore, how much you will be paying. Will can’t see a freelance artist ever doing that though.
People want to know exactly how much something they want costs so they can see if that service is on budget.
Jake says that you could put how much work you get done in a day on your website so they can see what they are paying for.
Don’t be afraid to negotiate. Stand firm in what you’re worth but don’t shy away from working with them. Ask them what they want and what they can pay for it, and then tell them what you can do for that amount of money.
David Hohn uses that technique, and he’s brought clients from low to high. He’ll tell them what he can do for them inside their budget and his clients will usually tell him that they want the big painting so they end up paying full price.
The more work you do the more experienced you become at pricing your work.
Lee’s noticed that beginner illustrators tend to ask for less than the minimum price that they think their work is worth and the professionals tend to ask for much more than something is worth so they have room to negotiate down without compromising what they want to get paid.
Don’t assume what the client is willing to pay. And don’t assume that every project is going to go smoothly.
Will advises that you try to stay away from asking for the minimum as well because you can scare a person off by asking for too little. When you ask for too little money you will have just outed yourself as a beginner and the client may walk away asking themself if you can deliver.
Jake learned the lesson of salesmanship from his grandma. She was an amazing craftsman along with Jake’s grandpa. At a craft show, if the things she and her husband had made were not selling she would go around and double all the prices and things would start selling.
That’s actually how Lee started selling originals at craft shows. Your work has a value that others put on it, but they base their number off the one that you’ve already stamped your work with. If you don’t value your art no one else will.
Lee thinks of this idea in terms of a buffet. He once went to a fancy buffet with all this gourmet food and he only had like three or four shrimp before he just wanted to start throwing them around. If those shrimp had been served to him on a plate he wouldn’t have wanted to throw them.
LINKS
Jake Parker: mrjakeparker.com. Instagram: @jakeparker, Youtube: JakeParker44
Will Terry: willterry.com. Instagram: @willterryart, Youtube: WillTerryArt
Lee White: leewhiteillustration.com. Instagram: @leewhiteillo
Daniel Tu: danieltu.co.
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